To me, logic, is nothing more than a tool for reasoning done within our heads and therefore has no more value than simple thought which is based on logic.

I probably should have did philosophy at school or college to stand any chance of making sense here, but these are my perceptions of the world and its functions.

I believe I said I can prove God from a philosphical point, and I did.

As far as evolution is concerned, it is not a discovery at ALL. Evolution is theory about 150 years old, and scientist have pretty much done everything they could to prove they are the pinicle of billions of years of randomness, and the supreme beings of the universe. Palenthology has proven evolution to be wrong.

And I'm pretty sure a human footprint much like your's or mine from 65million years ago throws evolution completely out the freaking window.

I like how people choose to ignore facts that don't coinside with there view of the universe.

No, you didn't, and you can't either. You can only explain some people's need to believe in God. Not that it exists. You reached a dead end.
So that makes it a non-discovery or what?
Sorry to break this to you, but you're misinformed. Paleonthology is one of many sciences to prove evolution, not to disprove it.
The earliest human might've been found at most 5 million years ago, so about those 65 million years ago, you must be dreaming. Unless you're talking about dinosaur extinction. And even supposing that humans existed at that time and they became extinct at the same time dinosaurs did, they re-evolved from basic primates, no "creation" involved.
You're the one who ignores facts just because you choose to believe in something made up.

No I think you are ignoring facts....

I think these are enough, so far. No one has given me any facts to suport there claim simply discoveries of fossils that scientest claim are millions of years old. I can keep going if you want me to. Remember the Cretaceous period was 144 - 65 million years ago. Now if you can debate THIS with anything beyond dribble, I will concede. And by the way your computer runs off pure philosophical logic. 0 1 is or is not.

The Burdick Track is a human footprint in Cretaceous limestone found in the Cross Branch stratum, a tributary of the Paluxy River in Glen Rose, Texas. It has been the source of controversy due to its "perfection" of shape, and has been considered by some to be a carving. In 1990 Director Carl Baugh and geologist Don Patton did extensive research to verify its authenticity.

Since the track had been removed many years ago from the river, the original site needed to be found. This was done by following leads from Glen Rose " old timers" who provided clues as to its original location. After several days of searching a stratum exposed by Cross Branch appeared to match the Burdick Tracks matrix (ivory tan color; fine grained, crystalline calcite inclusions). A lapidary expert cut a thin slice from both the Burdick Track and the Cross Branch stratum. It was a match.

Cordell VanHuse, Dallas lapidary expert, did cross sectioning of the track. Cutting across the heel section revealed the structures within the rock follows the contour of the heel. The cross section of the toe area shows clear pressure lines following the contour of the toes. This track could not have been carved and still contain these features. The Burdick Track is 6 ½ inches wide and 14 inches long. This width of a footprint is not inconsistent in size with those individuals who habitually go barefoot. The length of the footprint would indicate that the person might have been around 7 feet tall.

The Creation Evidence Museum's team has uncovered over 80 human footprints "in situ" among the dinosaur footprints on the Paluxy River. The Burdick footprint, found many years ago, is a pristine example.


Coal

Abstract:

Evolutionary theory requires millions of years in the formation of coal in order to afford time for the development of living organisms whose fossils are found in coal deposits. However, laboratory and field research has demonstrated that coal is formed rapidly and in vast quantities. These vast coal deposits are unsullied by other material. The conclusion is drawn that actual research indicates a young age to the Earth that contains such coalified materials.

Introduction

"If coal takes millions and millions of years of heat and pressure to form, how is it possible that creationists are teaching that the earth is only a few thousand years old?" This is a commonly asked question among individuals seeking answers about the age of the earth and the universe. Research has been done by several creation organizations, as well as independent scientists, in order to answer such questions. The evidence actually shows that coal does not take millions of years to form, as is commonly asserted. In fact, the formation of coal has been proven to be a rapid process that can be duplicated in modern laboratories in a matter of days - or even hours.

I. Rapid Formation

In order for coal to be formed, several factors must be present. Pressure, temperature, water, time, and some sort of vegetation are the key elements for the formation of coal. According to evolutionary theory, the slow accumulation and decomposition of vegetation living in past ages accounts for the coal seams. However, this theory can not answer why such large amounts of original vegetation without soil can be found in the areas that are now coal seams, or how these coal seams became so thick - some being over two hundred feet in depth.

Scientist Robert Gentry analyzed coalified wood found on the Colorado Plateau in order to determine how long it took for coal to form.1 By treating coal with epoxy and slicing it into thin sheets, Dr. Gentry was able to examine tiny, compressed radiohalos found in the coal. Radiohalos are discolorations in the coal, ejected by radioactive elements in the centers (such as uranium).

According to evolutionary theory, in order for these halos to form, several processes must have occurred. First, water-saturated logs must have been laid down in several different geologic formations, including the Triassic, Jurassic and Eocene layers. Later, uranium solutions infiltrated the water-saturated logs, and uranium decay products were collected at tiny sites within the logs. The radioactive decay from the tiny particles ejected spherical radiation damage regions around those sites, thus producing halos. Finally, a pressure event on the site of the formations compressed the logs as well as the radioactive halos within them. However, because coal is not a malleable substance, scientists know that these logs had not turned to coal at the time the compression event occurred. This points to a quick burial and coalification of the logs – rather than a long time period.2

II. Decay Ratios

When the ratio of uranium decay to its decay product (lead) is analyzed, the conclusion is drawn that all the logs within the various geologic formations were buried at the same time. The high lead-to-uranium ratios admit the possibility that both the initial uranium infiltration and the coalification could possibly have occurred within the past several thousand years.3

III. Polystrate Fossils

The presence of "polystrate" trees (trees petrified or coalified in an upright position) point to a rapid coalification process. One of the most commonly known polystrate trees is found at Katherine Hill Bay, Australia. This fossilized tree can be seen extending over twelve feet, through several sedimentary layers. According to evolutionary theory the different sedimentary layers took hundreds of thousands of years to accumulate. However, we know this is impossible since the tree would have decomposed long before the sediments would have had time to accumulate. Rather, this tree is testimony to the catastrophic and rapid burial that must have taken place.

IV. Unsullied Deposits

Finally, coal seams such as those found in the Powder River Basin of Gillette, Wyoming, ranging from 150 to 200 feet in depth, point to a rapid coalification process. "These coal seams run remarkably thick and unsullied by other material. Usually, unwanted sediments, such as clay, washes over a deposit before coal seams can get very thick. This leaves scientists with the baffling question of how the seams get so massive and still remain undiluted by influxes of clay and other impurities before they thicken."4

Conclusion

The answer can be found in the Biblical account of Noah's Flood. The Biblical description of the fountains of the great deep breaking up gives strong reference to volcanic activity in the pre-Flood basins.5 This would have provided several of the key factors need for the production of coal, along with an explanation of how the process could have occurred at such a rapid pace.

Although the coalification process has been used in the past to support theories of an aged universe, research done by leading creation scientists reveals that this process actually supports creation teachings of a young Earth. Physical evidence demonstrates that the coalification process must have occurred rapidly, rather than over vast time periods.

. The Fossil Record...Evolutionists have constructed the Geologic Column in order to illustrate the supposed progression of "primitive" life forms to "more complex" systems we observe today. Yet, "since only a small percentage of the earth's surface obeys even a portion of the geologic column the claim of their having taken place to form a continuum of rock/life/time over the earth is therefore a fantastic and imaginative contrivance.1" "[T]he lack of transitional series cannot be explained as being due to the scarcity of material. The deficiencies are real, they will never be filled."2 This supposed column is actually saturated with "polystrate fossils" (fossils extending from one geologic layer to another) that tie all the layers to one time-frame. "[T]o the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation." 3

2. Decay of Earth's Magnetic Field... Dr. Thomas Barnes, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Texas at El Paso, has published the definitive work in this field.4 Scientific observations since 1829 have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago would approximate that of a magnetic star. Under those conditions many of the atoms necessary for life processes could not form. These data demonstrate that earth's entire history is young, within a few thousand of years.

3. The Global Flood... The Biblical record clearly describes a global Flood during Noah's day. Additionally, there are hundreds of Flood traditions handed down through cultures all over the world. 5 M.E. Clark and Henry Voss have demonstrated the scientific validity of such a Flood providing the sedimentary layering we see on every continent. 6 Secular scholars report very rapid sedimentation and periods of great carbonate deposition in earth's sedimentary layers..7 It is now possible to prove the historical reality of the Biblical Flood.8

4. Population Statistics...World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 1089. 9 The universe does not have space to hold so many bodies.

5. Radio Halos...Physicist Robert Gentry has reported isolated radio halos of polonuim-214 in crystalline granite. The half-life of this element is 0.000164 seconds! To record the existence of this element in such short time span, the granite must be in crystalline state instantaneously.10 This runs counter to evolutionary estimates of 300 million years for granite to form.

6. Human Artifacts throughout the Geologic Column...Man-made artifacts - such as the hammer in Cretaceous rock, a human sandal print with trilobite in Cambrian rock, human footprints and a handprint in Cretaceous rock – point to the fact that all the supposed geologic periods actually occurred at the same time in the recent past.11

7. Helium Content in Earth's Atmosphere... Physicist Melvin Cook, Nobel Prize medalist found that helium-4 enters our atmosphere from solar wind and radioactive decay of uranium. At present rates our atmosphere would accumulate current helium-4 amounts in less than 10,000 years.12

8. Expansion of Space Fabric...Astronomical estimates of the distance to various galaxies gives conflicting data.13 The Biblical Record refers to the expansion of space by the Creator14. Astrophysicist Russell Humphries demonstrates that such space expansion would dilate time in distant space.15 This could explain a recent creation with great distances to the stars.

9. Design in Living Systems...A living cell is so awesomely complex that its interdependent components stagger the imagination and defy evolutionary explanations. A minimal cell contains over 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations.16 The chance of this assemblage occurring by chance is 1 in 10 4,478,296 .17

10. Design in the Human Brain...The human brain is the most complicated structure in the known universe.18 It contains over 100 billion cells, each with over 50,000 neuron connections to other brain cells.19 This structure receives over 100 million separate signals from the total human body every second. If we learned something new every second of our lives, it would take three million years to exhaust the capacity of the human brain. 20 In addition to conscious thought, people can actually reason, anticipate consequences, and devise plans - all without knowing they are doing so.21

1Woodmorappe, John, "The Essential Non-Existence of the Evolutionary Uniformitarian Geologic Column: A Quantitative Assessment," Creation Research Society Quarterly, vol. 18, no.1 (Terre Haute, Indiana, June 1981),pp. 46-71

2 Nilsson, N. Heribert, as quoted in Arthur C. Custance, The Earth Before Man, Part II, Doorway Papers, no. 20 (Ontario, Canada: Doorway Publications), p. 51

3Corner, E.J.H., Contemporary Botanical Thought, ed. A.M. MacLeod and L.S. Cobley (Chicago: Quadrangle Books, 1961), p. 97

4Barnes, Thomas, ICR Technical Monograph #4, Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field (2nd edition, 1983)

5Blick, Edward, A Scientific Analysis of Genesis (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1991) p. 103

6Clark, M.E. and Voss, H.D., "Fluid Mechanic Examination of the Tial Mechanism for Producing Mega-Sedimantary Layering" (Third International Conference on Creation, Pittsburg, July 1994)

7Ager, Derek, The Nature of the Stratigraphical Record (New York: John Wiley and Sons) p. 43 and p. 86

8West, John Anthony, Serpent in the Sky: The High Wisdom of Ancient Egypt (New York: Julian Press, 1987) pp. 13-14

9 See Morris, Henry, Scientific Creationism (El Cajon, CA: Master Books)

10Gentry, Robert, Creation's Tiny Mystery (Knoxville, Tenn.: Earth Science Assoc.,1988)

11 Baugh, Carl, Why Do Men Believe Evolution AGAINST ALL ODDS? (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1999)

12Cook, Melvin, "Where is The Earth's Radiogenic Helium?" Nature, Vol. 179, p. 213

13Cowan, R., "Further Evidence of a Youthful Universe," Science News, Vol. 148, p. 166

14Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22

15Humphries, Russell, Starlight and Time (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 1994)

16Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Bethesda, Maryland: Adler & Adler, 1986) p. 263

17 Mastropaolo, Joseph, "Evolution Is Biologically Impossible," Impact # 317 (El Cajon, CA: Institute For Creation Research,1999) p. 4

18Restak, Richard, The Brain: The Last Frontier, 1979, p. 390

19The Brain, Our Universe Within, PBS Video

20Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Video Series

21Weiss, Joseph, "Unconscious Mental Functioning," Scientific American, March 1990, p. 103

I like how all you said was "YOU'RE WRONG!"

I’ll take “your� arguments borrowed from the creationists and demount them piece by piece as they deserve, and not with arguments from evolutionists, no sir, with arguments of all other scientists except the handful of creationists.

FIRST

The "Burdick Track" is a large, supposedly human footprint in solid rock, on display at the Creation Evidences Museum (duh!). Creationists (duh!) interpret it as evidence that the rock formation where it was found is not as old as geologists claim.

Response:

The track shows evidence of having been carved - by somebody with limited knowledge of anatomy. Similar "tracks" are known to have been carved by George Adams in the 1930's near where the track was found.
In addition to this, in the wake of mounting evidence against the "man track" claims, most creationists have largely abandoned the "man track" claims, although a few persistent individuals, including Carl Baugh and Don Patton continue to promote such claims.

(So, it seems it’s nothing but a big fake, just like the Turin shroud, which was even more thoroughly proved as fake since it’s an older craft. Some people just can’t get enough of making up bogus proofs for something you believe in. That’s pathetic. Oh, even more pathetic is that even most creationists gave up this claim, but there are of course some yoyos who just don’t get it and beacsue of these tiny creatures, normal people with religious beliefs start trusting them on no basis. Sad.)

Oh, lemme give you also the carving procedure that was confessed, to remove further doubt on the matter:
“At least one man is known to have carved several "man tracks" in Glen Rose during the 1920's and 1930's. In 1970 a Glen Rose resident, Wayland Adams, stood before a group of creationists and described the technique his uncle George Adams used to carve such tracks. First, a suitable-sized stone slab would be found (preferably one that already had some depressions, to save carving time), and a shady spot under a tree would be selected as a workshop. Next, the footprint would be carved using hammer and chisel. A center punch was used to simulate raindrops, followed by an application of muriatic acid to dull the chisel and punch marks. For an aged appearance the slab would be covered with manure for a few days. Last, the edges of the slab were chipped to give the impression of a track chiseled from the riverbed.�

I already took too much space with this unimportant issue, so for further reading: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/wilker5.html

Then about the COAL thing, I must admit I read with interest that essay you posted until it reached the conclusion, NOAH’S FLOOD? Lol, really man, be serious, at least you if the ones who came up with this can’t be.
Most coals are found in sedimentary rocks deposited in terrestrial river floodplains. They have river channels, levees, and fossil soil horizons. Often soil horizons are found immediately below coal seams, and these are often filled with plant roots. All these structures are similar to modern peat-forming environments. The common occurrence of rooted upright trees that can not be transported (because they have delicate rootlets embedded in the sediment) is compelling evidence that most coals form near the surface in terrestrial environments (see the "polystrate trees" above). However, even more convincing is the co-occurrence of dinosaur footprints and upright trees on the top surface of several coal seams at a Cretaceous-age locality near Price, in southeast Utah. It is impossible to interpret these deposits as formed by a single event of short duration. The plants that form coal take time to grow, coal takes time to accumulate and decay, and trees take many years to grow. There are multiple coal seams and multiple tree and footprint horizons, and this is only in one short interval of the geologic record in one area. There are many other areas of similar coal deposits (e.g., Joggins, Nova Scotia). Rather than being a significant problem for conventional geology, coal is explained quite easily by analogy to modern peat environments. Coal deposits and associated sediments are an immense problem for any interpretation involving a "global flood".

2. Our planet's magnetic field reverses about once every 200,000 years on average. However, the time between reversals is highly variable. The last time Earth's magnetic field flipped was 780,000 years ago, according to the geologic record of Earth's polarity.

3. Again Noah? Pfff... I’ll get to my opinion on the Bible and it being involved in science in the end.

4. Oh, Noah again, lol.

5. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html
from which I quote part of the conclusion because it’s exactly the way I see things and I couldn’t have said it better: “If divine action is necessary to fit the halo hypothesis into some consistent model of Earth history, why waste all that time trying to argue about the origins of the haloes based on current scientific theory? This is where most Creationist arguments break down when they try to adopt the language and trappings of science. Trying to prove a religious premise is itself an act of faith, not science.�

6. http://paleo.cc/paluxy/hammer.htm
from which I quote: “Despite some creationist assertions that the hammer is a dramatic pre-Flood relic, no clear evidence linking the hammer to any ancient formation has been presented. Moreover, the hammer's artistic style and the condition of the handle suggest a historically recent age. It may well have been dropped by a local worker within the last few hundred years, after which dissolved sediment hardened into a concretion around it. Unless Baugh or others can provide rigorous evidence that the hammer was once naturally situated in a pre-Quaternary stratum, it remains merely a curiosity, not a reliable out-of-place artifact.�

7. A fair amount of helium is lost from the earth's atmosphere by simply being heated up in the elevated temperature of the exosphere. In addition to this, the most probable mechanism for helium loss is photoionization of helium by the polar wind and its escape along open lines of the Earth's magnetic field. Another possible escape mechanism is direct interaction of the solar wind with the upper atmosphere during the short periods of lower magnetic-field intensity while the field is reversing. Though detailed computations could not be made on either parts, it eventually became clear that helium can and does escape from the atmosphere in amounts sufficient to balance production.

8. For this and other astronomy related so-called controversies: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-yea.html on young earth counter-arguments.
9. The first cell was most likely a simple structure. All that it would need to consist of would be a simple self-reproducing molecule (a simple DNA or its precursor) surrounded by a lipid structure for protection. This arrangement would provide a survival advantage, and would hence be copied and passed on. The rest of the complex cellular machinery could evolve later. That first cell probably reproduced by splitting into two cells - the same way that modern cells reproduce. No miracle in it.

10. Our brain cells, brain molecules, neurotransmitters and synapses are almost identical in all animals – so the brains of insects, fish, reptiles, birds and mammals are all made from the same building blocks. Further reading: http://www.youramazingbrain.org.uk/insi ... lution.htm

To conclude, I realise this topic is getting absurd, as the debate between evolutionism and creationism is carried at higher levels and this is only a matter of quoting the experts by amateurs. Moreover, I have wasted too much time on a futile discussion, I am not going to achieve more than the ones above me scientifically and this is my last intervention.
As a last opinion of mine on the subject, it is sad (not to call it in an offending way) that the Bible which is a religious document has gained in some people’s view scientific weight. It reminds me of the search for Atlantis, because the distinction between Plato’s philosophy and his historical works cannot be clearly made. So, what I’m trying to say is that the Bible and all other main books of other religions are works on let’s say ethics that find pretty much an equivalent in nowadays legislation, and they should be interpreted as such and not as historical or even more irrational as scientific basis for new-age bull theories.

Oh, one more thing, creationism is worse than believing in god. In fact, many Christians support evolutionary creationism rather than young earth creationism.

I would like to thankyou for almost debating like an intellegent person, and almost treating me as an intellegent person. I do realise that you are to narrow minded to even fathom that there is a being beyond your comprehension. That man is more complex than any science can currently understand, and that there is a design to things.

I think if you treated people that believe in God as an equal, with a different perspective that you would find many friends within them, I'm sure you have many friends that do believe in God, and you just don't know it. I doubt you would call them weak, at least to their face, but then again I don't know you very well. You are very intellegent, arrogance is your downfall.

I leave you with this, if a hammer found in rock leads tot eh explaination of the rock not being as old as they previously thought, how many other rocks are not as old as they previously thought? And how do they explain that coal wasforming out of part of the handle?

Just some food for thought.

lol you guys suck

_________________
"Blessed be the noobs, for they shall inherit Obsidian" - Seer Thassius

Yea.

It was fun, interesting and even intelligent before. But now its all a rehash of the same stuff. I dont think this thread will serve much more purpose other than cause fights, so please let this one roll away, I dont want to have to lock it (or the OT mod do so).
Thanks.

i always thought all that intelligent design stuff was a tool to get religion taught in schools in the states.

also most of those creationists seem to deny the dinosaurs even existed aswell which is kinda odd if you ask me.


Throw this big bang stuff out the window though, I personally believe it all started when a cow licked the head of giant buried in a block of ice.

you kids shuddup i was learning stuff from them.

_________________
LOV FOR LIFE

nobody fucks wit de jesus



...i suggest you change your opinions Lorette... or else...