Actualy, both of you are addressing different portions of the weight issue.

LLama points out that the density of gold is higher than the density of iron, so gold should weigh more. This kinda makes sense, but if it was true to life a gold ingot should weigh almost 2.5 times as much as an iron ingot of the same size. Then we would have to address densities of everything above gold...

Chips addresses the other part, that there is nothing added to the final piece except value. If anything a small portion of the resources will be lost during the process. Therefore, the final piece should weigh no more than the resources used to make it.

_________________
Nash - Warrior (LoV)
Nashmith - Blacksmith (StoneD)
Nashtamer - Tamer (TLC)
Nash Fisher - Fisherman

What Chips is probably trying to say is that "matter (in most cases) can neither be created nor destroyed" so any item that weighs more than the material used to create the item is "breaking the universe." Sorry I did not comment about this part before, I just instantly wanted to respond to the weight of gold before I read the rest.

As for assigning values for the density of the other metals, I think only assigning silver, iron, gold and bronze densities is really applicable, since silver, iron, gold, and bronze are the only real kinds of metal ore. How are we supposed to know the density of mytheril or rose? LuLz!

_________________
I'm not crazy; I'm eccentric!

ya ya basically,,,
theoretically energy can transfored into matter,,, so i was saying like,, not enough energy was put in to make more gold...

which ya what yall said was true,,,

but um, i thought the problem was that u had gold ores and then made gold arms and the gold arms weighec more then the gold ores,,,

but w,e um
isn't iron a alloy? or am i thinking of bronze,,, bronze should have varying weight

_________________
king of the run on sentence.

Bronze is copper and tin. Steel is iron and carbon. It would take a whole bunch of energy to make matter from energy...

_________________
I'm not crazy; I'm eccentric!

If someone really wants to figure all this out, go nuts, i wouldn't be adverse to making everything "reality centric" in weights.
Start a new thread on it so we don't jack this one though.


That being said, ultima weights are in british stones, which is approximately 14 lbs or 6.35 kg.
Anyone who does the weight conversion is going to realize this ends up with people carrying multiple tons of weight.
So, i'd suggest two things for this thread, if it's wanted:

1st, weights in stones. Eventually i'll fix the system to not look so out of whack with numbers.
2nd, a base thing to compare to(say 1 iron ingot being 2 weight), then extrapolating everythign else to similar numbers.

Anyway keep up the discussion, heard some interesting things, and done some tweaking throuhgout the week, but all in all the system is holding up well

next round...

beginning skill 68.5

made 35 plate arms (iron), grouped 25 - 10
skill needed 66.3
18 iron ingots

first 25
25 regular
gain 0.2

last 10
1 shoddy and 9 regular
no gain


made 50 rusty katana, grouped 25 - 25
skill needed 47.1
8 rusty ingots

first 25
1 shoddy and 24 regular
gain 0.1

last 25
15 regular, 9 expert, and 1 master
no gain


made 50 bronze katana, grouped 25 - 25
skill needed 50.1
8 bronze ingots

first 25
24 regular and 1 expert
gain 0.1

last 25
25 regular
no gain


Arms are still the toughest Iron item I can make, so arms it was. First gain came in the first hammer strike. I did not expect 2 gains in the first set, so I assume the second may have been luck.

I've been curious about the colored weapons, so I decided to make a few. I saved the master rusty katana to testing. I'm curious to see if it will hit any harder than a regular iron katana. I plan to make more bronze, at least until I get a master quality piece for testing.

I didn't make gold this time because I only have a couple hundred ingots left. I plan to save up a few more and make a couple full sets of gold to compare AR values to a couple of prepatch sets I made.


There are a couple of things that can be annoying

-- Weight issue mentioned earlier. Of the first 25 iron arms made, 13 hit the floor at my feet. 18 iron ingots weigh 9 stones, but the arms made with those ingots weigh 18 stones. Of the first 25 rusty katanas, 11 hit the floor at my feet. 8 rusty ingots weigh 4 stones, but the katana made with those ingots weigh 8 stones. I had the same issue woith the bronze katanas. I didn't weigh those but every one I made increased my weight by 4 stones. This in consistant with the rusty results.

-- When scrolling down the menu if you select an item on the second page of the list, the menu list restarts on the first page. To continue checking the options on page 2 you must scroll back to it every time you select an item.

-- Must have iron ingots in your pack to access the weapons menu. You can then change the resource once you make a selection, but if you don't have enough iron you can't see the items on menu.

_________________
Nash - Warrior (LoV)
Nashmith - Blacksmith (StoneD)
Nashtamer - Tamer (TLC)
Nash Fisher - Fisherman

When I was blacksmithing I used bronze, shadow, and mytheril.

My skill is at 82.5

For bronze I made 75 gorgets

First time it was 50
No gain

Second time it was 25
No gain

For shadow I made 60 gorgets

First time it was 50
0.2 gains

Second time it was 10
No gain

For mytheril I made 35 gorgets

First time it was 25 gorgets
No gain

Second time it was 10 gorgets
No gain

For Bronze you need the skill of 60, for shadow you need 70, and for mytheril you need the skill of 80.

Here's some more tinkering training information.

Starting skill: 44.6
Ending Skill: 45.5
Total resources used: 600 Iron, 150 Rusty
*******************************************

50 iron barrel hoops (42 skill required, uses 4 iron ingots)

First batch
I gained .3

Second batch
I gained .2

Third batch
I gained .2


Rusty Ceramic Mugs (45.0 skill required, uses 3 rusty ingots)
I only did 1 batch and I got .2 gains

Edit:
I'd like to add that I also made some armor today with my GM smith. Out of all the shadow plate pieces in a set, only one was good enough to be expert. I mentioned the lack of quality from a GM smith in an earlier post, and I'd just like to bring it up again.

Something Like this would be similar to how plate armor durability in t3a was, and it worked well.

Iron 90% chance to make Master (GM named under old system)
Rusty 85
Brass 80
Gold 75
Shadow 70
Myth 65
Aga 60
Verite 55
Val 50
Silver 45
Rose 40
BR 35
Blood 30

Under the new system, shadow armor has the same chance to be poorly made as blood did under the old system. If we extrapolate this out, Blood plate armor will have a negative -30% chance of being master....since percentages can't be negative, we can just call it an absolute zero chance of anyone ever making blood plate mail crafted by a master...ever...

I'm probably a little wrong on my numbers, but the point is that GM smiths make REALLY crappy quality stuff now.

Here's some more skill gain information:

Iron Barrel hoops: 42 skill, 4 iron ingots
*******************************
I started at........................................45.6
first batch of 50 brought me to..............45.8..........gain of .2
Second batch of 50 brought me to..........46.0.........gain of .2
Third batch of 50 brought me to ............46.2..........gain of .2

Bronze Shovels: 46 Skill, 4 bronze ingots
****************************
I started at........................................46.2
first batch of 50 brought me to..............46.6..........gain of .4
Second batch of 50 brought me to..........47.0.........gain of .4
Third batch of 50 brought me to ............47.3..........gain of .3

More Iron Barrel hoops : 42 skill, 4 iron ingots
***********************************
I started at........................................47.3
first batch of 50 brought me to..............47.4..........gain of .1
Second batch of 50 brought me to..........47.6.........gain of .2
Third batch of 50 brought me to ............47.8..........gain of .2
Fourth batch of 50 brought me to ..........48.0..........gain of .2


Again, I think that the skill gain is good, but given the time and resources necessary to train this much, we should have gains like this around 80 skill, not 45 skill. 4 hours mining, 2 hours training, 2K ingots, and all i have to show for it is 2.4 total skill gain.......reasonable at 80, discouraging at 45.

And again, I'd like to point out how repeatable the skill gains are. I could time when I would get a gain to within 5 items, and I'm sure that if i put any real effort into it, I could time the gains to within 2 items. There is very little, (if any) randomness invloved with these skill gains....

oh and a special thanks to judass for helping me get rid of the 100s of hoops I had to make in order to complete this chart

More blacksmithing...

beginning skill 68.9

made 25 platemail legs (iron), i set of 25
skill needed 68.8
20 iron ingots


1 shoddy and 24 regular
0.2 gain

Skill got me a new iron piece, so that is what I made. Skill gains came at the beginning and end, so I would probably only get 0.1 gain out of next set unless I get lucky. Weight is still an issue.

Noticed a tweek to mining several days ago. I seem to be gettinmg less iron as a proportion of total mined in a pass. Also, verite and above went to 1 ore per find when the patch was implemented. They are more normal now, but valorite is only 2 ores per tile now. Seems like verite takes many more hits than it should to dig it up. At GM mining it should not take 6-8 hits to mine out verite.

kinda have to agree with Azimuth on the difficulty issues mentioned. Out of the 50 bronze katanas made and mentioned in a previous post, 49 regular and only 1 expert. That did seem a little tough given the difference in actual skill and skill needed.

_________________
Nash - Warrior (LoV)
Nashmith - Blacksmith (StoneD)
Nashtamer - Tamer (TLC)
Nash Fisher - Fisherman

tonights results...

beginning skill 69.1

made 25 plate legs (iron) in a single set
skill needed 68.8
20 iron ingots

all 25 regular
0.2 gain


made 50 rusty katana, grouped 25 - 25
skill needed 47.1
8 rusty ingots

first set
24 regular and 1 expert
0.1 gain

second set
22 regular, 1 expert, and 1 master
(lost 1?)
no gain


made 25 bronze katana in a single set
skill needed 50.1
8 bronze ingot

18 regular and 7 expert
no gain

resources used
500 iron ingot
400 rusty ingot
200 bronze ingot

total gain 0.3


I actually lost a rusty katana and don't know where it went. It was in the second set. I sell pieces after ewach set, so I was well under weight max. It wasn't in my pack or at my feet, and I got 161 gold from the vendor (23@7gp) so I didn't just miscount, but I did use 200 ingots on that set. I don't think the lag I noticed before and after, or the constant resyncing may have contributed, but I doubt it.

I have noticed significantly lower expert and master numbers that I expected with the lower skill items (katanas). It would be nice if a GM smith was able to collect some data to verify.

_________________
Nash - Warrior (LoV)
Nashmith - Blacksmith (StoneD)
Nashtamer - Tamer (TLC)
Nash Fisher - Fisherman

OK, here goes

Beginning skill - 100

made 50 iron platemail gloves in 2 batches

first batch all expert, no master

second batch, 21 expert, 4 regular, no master

Will try 50 more.

did 50 more iron platemail gauntlets in batches of 10

1. 1 normal 9 expert

2. 6 expert, 4 gm

3. 9 expert, 1 gm

4. 2 expert, 8 gm

5. 6 expert, 4 gm

i also tried smithing some verite and valorite. Did 2 complete plate sets of verite and 1 set of plate valorite. That's 21 pieces. All but 2 pieces started of with fumble or clumsy, and 1 of those 2 pieces turned out shoddy, the other was gm as it was a valorite buckler which says you only need a 9.0 skill to make when all other valorite pieces say 90.0. So that needs to be fixed.

NOT ONE OTHER PIECE IS EVEN EXPERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mined literally for 8 hours yesterday to get that ore. Now i make armor out of it and i cant even get 1 gm piece save for the one that is mis-scripted.

I'm a lil' upset about that. i know its just a game, but come on now, a gm blacksmith cant make gm armor, wtf is that about!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Myth

5 pieces, all normal. 85 ingots later.

The system all in all looks good and runs well. You guys did a good job on it. Thank you. I think that the harder armors to craft need to be tweaked a lil as there is almost no way in hell to make them gm.

Only half of the craft patch is in...so expect bugs...

Like, I can make color armor gorgets, but not plate mail gorgets.
Like, pitchfork isn't in the craft menu.

_________________
I'm not crazy; I'm eccentric!